Carter meets with Hamas, the rest of the political world still clueless

Former President Jimmy Carter said today that his visit to the Middle East will likely include meetings in Syria with Hamas. “I’ve not confirmed our itinerary yet for the Syrian visit, but it’s likely that I will be meeting with the Hamas leaders,” Carter said in an interview on ABC news.

The Bush administration and Israel predictably oppose the meetings. Carter has always sought to be evenhanded in the Middle East until he was trounced by the Israeli lobby for daring to deal with both sides. The Bush administration still thinks that isolating Hamas and pretending like they don’t exist will solve the problem. The Bush administration’s continual strategy in the Middle East to overpower all challengers and to give unquestioned military, political, and financial support to Israel has done and will continue to do absolutely nothing toward bringing peace–both in the Middle East and here in America. 

Is it not obvious that this strategy only strengthens Hamas? The government should work with all sides regardless of what they think of each other. This is the nature of arbitration; people dont like each other yet they still meet at the same table to talk. America must stop giving Israel free reign to do as it pleases with OUR resources and begin to recognize the rights of Palestinians.

A discussion of torture and waterboarding

Here is a thread that I was a part of discussing waterboarding. To see the whole article go to The Irritable Elephant. The first comment is in response to the post.

environmentalchristian

As someone who lived in the M.E. for a number of years and who has been in a war I can tell you with certainty that violence and hegemony do not, in the long run, prevent violence. You fail to see the long term effects. By sacrificing any moral standing that we have (i.e. unjustly attacking and killing millions of Iraqis, ignoring basic human rights, etc.) we do not prevent new attacks…we postpone them. What do you think the idea of waterboarding does to young men who already have a dislike for America? Have you thought through that? We are breeding thousands and thousands of future attackers. <– That is not some liberal banner statement. It is truth.

No, Bush is not some visionary because he recognizes that al-Qaida does not play by the rules. He simply is too weak to take the higher ground by realizing there are rules to war. This doesnt make us safer…it prolongs our unsafety.

Mark

environmentalchristian,

Thanks for posting. I appreciate all comments regardless of their point of view. But I want to take issue with your premise.

I deeply respect the fact that you lived in the Middle East, an area that I have only visited. But here’s where you and I disagree:

- We unjustly attacked and killed “millions of Iraqis.” I’m interested to see where you get this statistic. Moreover, most opinion polls (as unreliable as they may be in Iraq) show that the majority of Iraqis feel that they are better off under American occupation that in the quarter century, bloodthirsty dictatorship of Saddam Hussein.

And about the waterboarding thing. If you are referring to the actual act, it has been reported that less than ten detainees were subjected to this. This could not possibly breed thousands of attackers. If you are referring to the way that biased outlets like Al-Jazeera report on American activities in Iraq (and I am not saying that we don’t have biased outlets here in the U.S.) they are going to hate us anyway if we waterboard or not. The fundamentalist, Islamo-facsists don’t need bulletin board material to hate our guts. They already do and want to convert us to Islam – or kill us. Period.

And my final point is that you state is that “there are rules to war.” Al-Qaida does not play by the rules and my personal opinion is that it is time that our country learned the new rules of engagement.

We disagree, but thanks for posting.

IE

Jethro

Environmental Christian,My wife lived in the ME for years. Her family had to be evacuated by the Royal Air Force when the fanatics took over. These people already have a mindset to hate America and it’s freedom. You’re not creating dissent. It’s already there.

Information is the best way to save lives. One of my closest friends is in the army and is over in Iraq now. He’s handling intel reports. He’s singing a very different tune than you. He’s seeing the bigger picture because he’s there NOW. He’s among the people. He’s helping to capture the enemy and seeing how it affects the local community. Those who are attacking Americans have always had the mindset to attack Americans. However, the locals he’s involved with are extremely thankful that they’re there.

Irritable Elephant

Jethro,

Thanks for your comments. I am corresponding with a Marine Captain in Iraq now, so feel free to check back everyone once in a while.

Thanks for reading.

IE

environmentalchristian March 9, 2008 at 9:25 pm

Mark,

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate it when bloggers discuss rather than just throw mud. It is possible I suppose that there are polls that would show the majority of Iraqis think they are better off now than they were under Saddam. Personally though I find this very doubtful. I cant fathom the majority of Iraqis thinking they are better off now.

My Iraqi friends almost unanimously say that Iraq is far more dangerous now than it was under Saddam. Not only that, but the war has made Iran more powerful. Iraq and Iran have been buffers for each other for a long time. We just removed one.

Surely you are not arguing that the Iraq war has endeared us to Iraqis. Beyond doubt this is not the case. The Arab world feels to be under our thumb more and more and more. Pressure causes reactions. That is a sad fact.

I am referring more to the knowledge that America uses torture techniques rather than the actual act (which is a horrible) being committed to a few prisoners. I would take issue with two statements that I believe have the same seed of thought:

1. “they are going to hate us anyway if we waterboard or not. The fundamentalist, Islamo-facsists don’t need bulletin board material to hate our guts. They already do and want to convert us to Islam – or kill us. Period” Mark

2. “These people already have a mindset to hate America and it’s freedom. You’re not creating dissent. It’s already there” Jethro

To me the seed of thought here is that they already hate us and that is an unrepairable fact. It is not. There are all kinds of people in the Middle East. I have personally only ever encountered two Arabs that hated me just because I was American…two (which I remember well) out of thousands.

Lastly, I notice that you do not seem to take issue with the broader argument that violence in the end only prolongs the destruction. I will admit that torture will sometimes give information that blunts pointed attacks. However, when we open that door and release all the moral authority that we have left we cause a spiral of violence that is much worse.

Irritable Elephant

environmentalchristian,

I respect your comments and will without question leave them up. I think my other readers — 99 percent of whom are respectful — will chime in too.

We might disagree on some points, but you are welcome to post any time. And like you said, reasonable people can disagree. I don’t like it when people start slinging mud either.

IE

 Ryan

This has always been a 7-10 split for me. I think insuring domestic tranquility and providing a common defense are among the most important things (if not the most important) our government does. If making a terror kingpin (who’s goal is to kill as many americans as possible) feel like he’s drowning for a minute or two makes him give up some important info, then I have no problem with doing it.

I do however agree with the moral high ground argument. If later on we get in a war with a legit country (say Iran) and they begin to torture our men and women in uniform, how can we stand up and say they are violating international law? This in a way is exposing our troops in future wars and police actions.

Imo this is what should be done. Under no circumstance should the military be conducting torture. Leave this to professionals (CIA) and use it rarely on prisoners who have a lot of info to give up. The only reason this is being discussed is Abu Ghraib. If that situation never made the light of the media day, this blog post or the LA Times article (and 1000s like it) would have never been written. Military isn’t trained to do this for maximum results. Having ppl in their late teens and early 20s using their best judgment in the torture of ppl who’ve killed their buddies, brothers and sister in arms, or fellow citizens isn’t a likely scenario.

As far as Iraq being worse off then it was under Saddam, well of course it is. This is a messy situation that was handled poorly from the word go. Now we finally have troop levels that allow the generals to get things headed into a positive direction and we should just quit? If we do quit, Iran grabs their piece, Al Qaeda grabs their’s, and the Kurds hold on for dear life while they are acted from every which way.

Do I think we went there under false pretenses and the war should have never happened? Yes, but I nor can anyone else can wish it away. Atleast being there right now there is more control and stability to the situation. Since the surge there has been some reason for hope.

Zelda

I think environmental christian has a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the enemy over there. They do not think the same way the West thinks. You’re looking at a place where very little has changed in a 2 millenia except for some clusters of technology (which they had nothing to do with inventing).

The premise of the Geneva convention is that both sides of a conflict will honor it. If one side doesn’t follow it and the other side does, the one who follows it will lose. They put themselves at a disadvantage to really evil people who should not win no matter what.

Waterboarding? Don’t care. Whether we do it or not has no bearing whatsoever upon what AQ will do to anyone they capture. If we do it, they will use it as an excuse to torture people. If we don’t do it, they will praise Allah that he made us weak, and they will torture people anyway. It’s not a logical culture.

As for Iraqis declaring it was better under Saddam, find out whether they were Sunni, Shia or Kurd before you accept their statement blindly.

During the American Revolution, there were probably plenty of people who thought they had it better under the monarchy. But when you persevere in the cause for freedom and win, things will only improve. That’s been proven throughout history and I have no reason to think it wouldn’t be true in Iraq as well.

environmentalchristian

Zelda,I can see why you think I have a misunderstanding of AQ. But, I do not. I understand all to well what the organization is. It is not being argued (in fact this thread takes it as a given) whether AQ will follow the rules of war. Or course they will not.

Yes, you are correct in pointing out that different ethno/religious groups will have different viewpoints on Saddam. I have lived in the Middle East for many years, and I am fluent in Arabic. This is where my knowledge base is coming from.

I do not know your background, but I take great issue with your characterization (or should I say caricaturization) of Arab/Muslim culture. You say,

“Waterboarding? Don’t care. Whether we do it or not has no bearing whatsoever upon what AQ will do to anyone they capture. If we do it, they will use it as an excuse to torture people. If we don’t do it, they will praise Allah that he made us weak, and they will torture people anyway. It’s not a logical culture”

First point, “Waterboarding? Don’t care.” You should care. It is a disgusting act. They are people. They are human beings who deserve basic human rights. What, may I ask, is so much better about our culture if we dont care? We are then identical to them.

Second point, “It’s not a logical culture” What do you mean by this statement? It sounds to me that you have just as much hate as they do.

Listen to me please. Muslims are not murderers. They are lovely, generous, kind, thoughtful people. Do not confuse al-Qaida with Muslims. There are murderers in every culture. Just look at the violence on our College and Junior High/High School campuses here in America. Violence spirals.

BTW most people online just call me EC

That is the end of the thread. If more is added I will add it here if I get a chance.

Bush commits an unchristian atrocity by allowing waterboarding

President George Bush vetoed a bill on Saturday to ban the use of waterboarding during prisoner interrogations by the United States. In my opinion this is one of the most outrageous acts of President Bush’s tenure. If you don’t know what waterboarding is, Wikipedia describes it as: 

“A form of torture that consists of immobilizing a person on their back with the head inclined downward (the Trendelenburg position), and pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. Through forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences the process of drowning and is made to believe that death is imminent. In contrast to merely submerging the head face-forward, waterboarding almost immediately elicits the gag reflex. Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death. The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure.”

Waterboarding is beyond doubt torture. By affirming the use of torture to prisoners Bush sends the message yet again that the “Christian Nation” cares nothing for others. They only care for themselves. We scream and holler when we are scratched in the least, but we will not extend basic human rights to the rest of the world. It sickens me that this message is conveyed over and over again in much of the world.

Jesus taught to love our enemies.